The Black Gay Community

SGL DISCUSSION

It seems a very conservative tide has swept the community. Using the word conservative in the same sentence as gay would have caused disbelief or laughter just a few years ago. But indeed it has happened! Many gay black men now can only value gay men who are straight acting. I know one brutha in particular that got so caught up into hip hop and being hard until he participated in a gang rape with his straight friends. Needless to say he regrets his actions but was still given a jail sentence. Moreover, this straightening of the black gay community is especially evident in adult videos that cater to black males. Video after video now literally shows straight men having sex with other straight men. Or worse gay men pretending to be straight which really is counterproductive! Don't get me wrong I'm not condemning these types of videos but what I am questioning is the messages that these videos send to gay black males. It just cant be healthy to see videos that are this lopsided. It would be better in the long run to see more rounded material in some of these videos or at least men that are really themselves. If one went just by the black gay male adult industry one would not even know that many gay men are softer acting in their mannerisms which is not to be looked down upon because it is natural to them. However the adult industry responds to demand. And we are demanding gay men that act straight and straight men pretending to want to have sex with other males and can't even get their dicks hard to entertain us. Its almost sick in way! And so it becomes important that we recognize the need to be balanced; striving to paint all gay males in just as a positive light as masculine gay males if were are to prosper as a community. Its time out for the negative. Lets learn to give each other a chance and not be so quick to judge or write off a brutha just because he is not straight acting. You may just meet and get to know someone real. Or is the point being missed with the whole down low straight acting scene?

DISCUSSION

From HermGln@aol

It's interesting that this topic of discussion has come to the forefront. In growing up as a child, I always knew that I was different (i.e., always had feelings for the same sex). It didn't make matters any better that I have lightskin and was ridiculed by my cousins who have a darker complexion than I do. It also doesn't help that I speak correct grammar, and don't associate myself with what is considered to be cool (i.e., hip-hop lingo, hip-hop wear, etc...you get the picture). Anyway, that's another issue all by itself. But back to your question, there is a problem with "effeminate acting men" being viewed in the gay community as negative. I was reared in a single family home with my mom, and I am the only child. So, all I had around me was women. Yes, I do have some feminine traits, as welll as some masculine traits, but I think most of us do to some point but are afraid to let those traits be known to the outside world. It's unfortunate that some gay men have to portray an act of someone being macho, hardcore, or straight-acting in order to be accepted in the straight community as well as some gay communities. I particulary see this problem within the black gay community. Just from what I have seen and heard, everyone is looking for someone who looks like a model, who is straight-acting and have no feminine traits whatsoever. But in the whee hours of the morning, you get a phone call asking can he come over. In essence, you don't want to be seen in public with someone who has feminine traits but wouldn't hesitate to sleep with him in early morning. My brothers, we have to start accepting ourselves for who we are instead of what societies dictates. If you want to be with someone who has feminine qualities, there is nothing wrong with that. I think that's why we, as black gay men, can't find stability in a friendship or a relationship because we tend to focus on more of what a person should be instead of what a person has to offer. I would think at some point you would want to settle down instead of trying to find someone who weighs this much, have this shade of color, have a certain penis size, and act a certain way. Until we, as black gay men, get pass the stereotypes of what a gay man is supposed to act like and focus on getting to know him as a person, we can start to have more monogamous relationships. On another note, if you can't be yourself around your "friends", or bring your lover around your "friends", then your friends aren't really your friends. Accept yourself for who you are as a person, God does.

Take Care~ Herman

From BADICK@WEBTV

I USE TO LIVE IN THE ATL AND THEY A GREAT DEAL OF THE GUYS THERE R WHAT U WOULD CALL STR8 GAY MY STR8 FREINDS COULD NOT BELEIVE THE MEN I WAS DATING. IN THE ATL THEY CALL SELFS B-BOY OR BANGY
THUGS, OR ON THE DL. BUT THEY CARRY SOO MUCH BAGGAGE. SO I NO LONG DATE THAT TYPE. OR EVEN WORST THE ONES THAT DON'T WANT TO BE LABLED. WHICH SAYS IN A EGGSHELL THEY R GAY AND DON'T WANT TOO ADDMIT IT. ENOUGH OF THAT SIGNED REAL GAY MAN.

From e.hardy1@worldnet.att

Hello fellas!

I guest I have mixed fillings about the "straighting" of black culture. I feel that I myself have tried to eliminate anything that has ever marked me as a bi-sexual male, only to find that it really made little difference in how people see me. Now I kinda miss some of the "female me." Through hindsight I now understand that it takes a lot of strengh, alot of HEART, to play a societal role as your true self. Because I see little to no reason in portraying a lie or false role. Non of as should fall into habit of not owning up to true selves. Sociaty in the States may be inproving, but we can't sell ourselves, diversity must be accepted in order for us to grow and for society to change. It starts with us.

The Fool

From dwa5213060aol.com

I really enjoy seeing straight acting men engaging into sexual activity on film. Maybe, because I am myself on of those straight acting males myself, nothing fem turns me on, If i want a woman I could have on, without any probelm.
I have a child, and I had a woman, and if I wanted that soft fem. acting woman, I would find that in a woman, not a man, when I think of a man I think of Masclinity not fem.

The straight videos more refer to who I am. I don't look at them in that way and say maybe a fem man should be getting fucked by a masc. man, no I like to masc, men getting busy.

I am not putting down other form of film in any way shape or form, but that is not what floats my boat, some like people like horror movies, some like comedy, its up to the person to find what material is best suite for them.

pesce

From Amond27aol.com

I also feel as though most people have missed the question you asked entirely. Everyone seems to have drifted to their extreme hatred of or disgust for feminine men. When did you ask anything about str8 acting gay men. Can we stick to the subject. You want to know how we feel about our gay brothers refering to themselves as Miss and girl. Simply put, to each his own, but there is time and place for everything. Personally I don't like hearing it but words never killed anyone. A lot of gay men take those words as a threat to their manhood. Lightin up. That what's wrong with our community they always focus on the wrong thing i.e., gossip, reading, slaying and other peoples man. Can't we all just get along. No I'm not feminine but I am gay and have live this life long enough to know that we will never stop the "queens" from queening or the sissies from twirling hell, secretly some of us find it amusing, at times. All gay men have something that someone would consider femine besides the language that he uses, does that make him any less of a man. Just know that we are all fighting an uphill battle and we'll never get anywhere if were fighting each other.

From ANONYMOUS

First of all I just want to comment on how good da site is, then let me get right into my opinion. With all due respect not all men are equal. Some men posses qualities that they cannot rid themselves of and others were blessed with qualities that makes easy for them to be identified with what is considered the norm. As a young man which I still am, I grew up in a family of eight and being the only male in the family I quickly adapted to those qualities that were being displayed around me. When I got older and was exposed to other gay men who out did themselves, I came to the conclusion that my qualities in reality were very unattractive. Every since I have tried to curb my habits with limited results. I am not the type to let the world know who or what I am about, but I have qualities that are very hard to change. What I am getting at is, there is nothing wrong with effeminacy, there is only a problem when you over due your actions. Thats really when it becomes unattractive

From sublevel@hotmail.com

okay, since i last posted i have been doing a lot of thinking on this subject called homosexuality. first, i'd like to mention how much i appreciated the posts form sancierk, vsbrya0, sfarmer, blkmright1 and you wonderful anonymous you. in thinking about these subjects a lot of old painful memories came up. memories of rejection, contempt, self loathing, lonliness, etc. i remember when my male cousins who seemed to 'tolerate' me because we were related would ignore me on the street if they were with their cronies.i remember buying hip-hop gear, practicing my ebonics,and listening to rap music in order to give the impression of 'sameness'. i remember the years of absolutely unbelievable sex and absolutely unbelievable loneliness. you see, i've always been attracted to 'straight' men, that's what i went after
and that's what i got. consequently i got great sex but NEVER got the love and affection that i TRULY desired.i did an expirement the other day on a chat line that is here in NYC. i went in as a gay man, then a straight woman, then a straight man. the observations were remarkable. almost ALL of the gay men left messages that were very rough and sexually explicit in nature. the tone was usually very macho and gruff. ebonics was the language - always. then when i went in as a straight woman, all of the straight men were leaving messages that portrayed sensitive, caring, loving men. i thought that is was quite ironic that both groups of men were, more or less, pretending to possess the attributes of the other group. but the most
interesting was going on as a straight male. the system will let you know if a person is in conversation with someone and how many messages they have waiting. after listening to the queue of available females i had heard TWO self-identified transexuals, BOTH of them were in conversation and BOTH of them had more messages waiting than i had ever heard before! interesting . . .i welcome any dialogue from the readers on this site and i hope that the communication continues.

I CAN SEE THE LIGHT!!

David

From SlimTn@aol.com

I enjoyed reading all of the brothers' comments on the issue of "straight black men" having sex v. "gay black men". I am not sure what the webmaster is referring to when he discusses the porn flicks depicting straight black men having sex. My initial thought was that if a brother is having sex with another man, movie or not, then there is no way in hell he can be straight. But being gay, I suppose, is a mind-set, so someone could conceivably have same gender sex for money without any kind of emotional ties to homosexuality. In that way, I suppose, a brother could declare himself straight, but has sex with other men for money.

As to the issue of effeminate acting gay men, well there you have surely opened up a can of worms. I don't know about others, but I have consciously worked over my entire adult life (I have been 18+ for over twenty years) to eliminate any conceivable vestige of effeminancy. The speech and looks have never been a problem, its been mostly the mannerisms. Lets not kid ourselves. Any black man who displays any overt evidence of homosexuality is subjecting himself to unrelenting insults, ridicule, taunts, and worse. This presented a real big problem for me as a teenager because I was over six feet tall, but couldn't bounce a basketball half-court, and still can't. My non-athleticism, coupled with my excellent academic record and standard english usage, subjected me to cruel taunts, threats, and comments to members of my family. This all left a profound impact on my psyche, and to this day I am very conscious about my overall persona.

From Dhemilo@webtv.net

Yo Man Just wanted to say to ya that for the most part I agree with you when you say not to look down on someone becuase of their "femmininity" ok I dig and also about there being alot of "Ruffnecks" out and about now..

This is where you and I part. For one thing Titles are silly wen we put them on others but realy.."str8 gay men"?
If you mean No fems being shown getting done..than ok I get it BUT
What about men that are Bi? where do they fit in to your theory?
And also-
TOO many people think fem=gay gay=fem well I say stop it!!
You are guilty of this yourself
You must not as a fellow Bro forget about the power of Hip-Hop it has changed the world yep just like the intenet
NOW young boyz cummin out today don't have to act one way or another they can just be themselves
too bad about your friend what he did was just plain stupid he did not have to hide behind hip-hop to get a taste of violence or to act hard..

well ok there you go.

From saucierk@ucs.orst.edu

I really have no problem with men identifying themselves as women, or expressing themselves as feminine, nor am I embarassed by such displays or being identified by them in the feminine sense.
I read the responses many of the brothas posted and I've noticed that there is one single thread running through them. Being threatened by feminine displays. This is due largely to any number of things though most of the complaints seem to be that overtly feminine men embarassed the more masculine brothas
and incurred feelings of shame among many of them. Many of the men expressed that they didn't want to be identified as a female because of the stereotypical images it conveys. I guess my feeling is why does anyone really give a shit? I mean we all jump through the same hurdles as Black Gay or Bisexual Men in a nation that is not only hostile to our race and ethnicity,
but also towards our sexuality. I find it interesting that masculine men make such a big deal of the "spectacle" feminine men make of "themselves and our community", yet they seem to exist in relative comfort as opposed to men who have any sort of feminine characteristics.
I don't consider myself to be femme, but my voice is not deep and therefore I'm often categorized as a "queen" and the masculine traits which I do have are ignored.
I think what should be remembered here is that we are dealing with many different social constructs in this issue.
1. The issue of gender-Pretty much I believe that sex is biological we are born either male or female. Gender on the otherhand, the traits and cultural mores associated with sex are largely social and cultural constructs and in our case as Black Americans, we have been and continue to operate (wether we will admit it or not) largely under European constructs of gender. Constructs which in my mind we should largely ignore because they were not the constructs of our ancestors.
2. Misogeny is also at work. I mean think about, in every culture across the earth women have traditionally occupied subordinate positions. Feminism as a historical cultural social phenomenon is still relatively quite new. Therefore it stands to reason that many masculine gay men are irked by feminine gay men because they display characteristics that are considered subordinate and weak. The whole a "man is strong and hard" image is tarnished by these men who deviate from that image. When taken into a larger context when these feminine man act out infront of members outside of our sexual group they are seen as being embarassing and living up to a stereotypical image. In a society that constantly portrays gay men of all races as feminine (which is equated with weakness), the embarassment angers the masculine men in the community who feel that their manhood is threatened and these feelings are simply redirected towards feminine gay men.
In short feminine characteristics within a women are acceptable because of her place in our patriarchal society and European gender constructs which have filtered down into African Communities living within North America, yet for a man to display these characteristics it is considered a serious threat to the patriarchal power structure and the very European constructs of masculinity.
3. There is also a moral issue that I saw expressed often. Feminine brothas are stereotyped as being " catty, bitchy, rude, vicious and self hating" among other things. And yes I've met many men categorized as feminine whose behavoir fits these profiles, but I've also met feminine men who do not. They are kind, giving, affectionate, emotionally open. On the flipside I've met more rude, stand offish, sexually agressive, and self hating masculine men than I have masculine men who were comfortable with their sexuality. Let's be honest everyone one of us in the Life has some serious problems we have to deal with. I have my hall of shame and you have yours, so basically the moral issue is mute. None of us is perfect and for everyone "bitchy queen, thinking she's the shit," there is a "ruffneck nigga who clutches his dick like he's about to loose it and runs around talking all that DL stupidity." Like I said the moral issue is mute because both groups in the community suffer from the same basic problems.

In closing I think we need to have some serious dialouges within our community about gender, stereotypes, and the constructs under which we are operating. Even the Black American code of Masculinity which we all live under doesn't bear any great resemblance to African codes of masculinity. The sooner we begin to really begin to value and respect (not tolerate) each other for who we are, the sooner the heterosexual Black Community and the Majority culture will show our people the respect we so richly deserve.

From larry_d_fowler@hotmail.com

"The Straightening of Gay Black Men." While interesting points were raise by Mike, and subsequently the forum, I can’t understand why no one stated simply—"Who cares!"      After all, pornography (gay or straight) is about sex. It is not about love. It is not about relationships. It is not about gender roles. I find discussing black gay male "roles", based on pornography, both ill-advised and counterproductive. I submit, as a once inspiring actor and lover of the movies, that pornography, though shot on film, isn’t film at all. It’s relationship to film is akin to professional wrestling’s relationship to sports; a distant and rightly put down cousin. Having said that, I would like to address a more important issue as it relates to the so-called "straightening" of black gay males.       I am a regular subscriber to the New York Times and pick up the Village Voice every week. What disturbs me more than any portrayal of black gays in porn, is the lack of any films about black gay men. Look through the movie (or theater) section of one of the above mentioned publications and you will find a wealth of good quality gay films that address the human condition of gay men. There is comedy, drama,
mystery; even violence. Absent are African-American males. Where is our "Boys Life", "Jeffrey", "Love, Valor, Compassion", "As Is"? Why are we not the good gay friend in "My Best Friend’s Wedding?" Why not one of us in "Object Of My Affection" splitting one-liners with Jennifer Anniston (or better yet Jada Pinkett) ? Why aren’t we the hurting yet helpful gay neighbor in "As Good as It Gets?"   This pseudo-segregation is much more deserving of our contempt and discussion than who is or isn’t gay in the porn industry.I will not pull punches is laying blame for this phenomena. Charles Williams wrote:

. . .As far as movies, I would much rather see two straight appearing
men rather than two [or 1] effeminate men. It is a deep turn on two see
two MEN get busy. . .

     Charles then goes on to speak glowingly of the relationship between
he and his masculine long term partner. He even notes that his son
lives with him and is perfectly comfortable. Why does Charles then not
hunger to see relationships and situations like his own on screen?
Would not seeing two "two straight appearing men" kissing, flirting or dancing not be a "deep turn on"? Another brother (I will call him Carl) contributed this:

. . .most of these ACTORS...and that's what they are would not get these roles if they did not play the ruffneck straight acting role. because this is what the gay community is demanding. we refuse to accept the drag queens and effeminate brothers, because we feel they don't adequately represent us. . .

     The reason that there are no "real" films about, for or by gay
African-American men is because we don’t demand or want them. We are perfectly content with the occasional so-called strong picture of black gay male masculinity in an insignificant supporting role (Chasing Amy), or a smart uptight professional on a nighttime sitcom (Spin City). It would almost seem that we (African-American gay males) have begun to equate "gayness" with sex. Accepting that our entire experience can be captured by the porn industry. Just once it would be nice to see the two gay black men fem or ruff in a love story, adventure film or comedy that doesn’t have as its driving force the big three—Drugs, Drag and Death.
     Who, however; will make some noise? I don’t expect any of us to
join the non-existent ranks of the those petitioning Hollywood (or 40
acres and a Mule) meaningful black gay film. African American gay men, with a few notable exceptions, rarely even join the ranks of mainstream gay organizations for basic human rights. Rights, I might add, that we often demand for ourselves based on race. Carl suggests that if anything is to be done about our "non" existence in non-porno films, it will be done by the very men that porn ignores:

. . .but respect the brothers who chose to open and 'PROUD'. . .about
who they are. . .it’s through these brave soldiers that we now have
rights in congress. . . and it is through these brave soldiers that
there are organization set up for our brothers dying of aids, and for
our young brothers who are just coming out and need some guidance. . .

     It is possible that I am alone in my desire to go to the movies
with another gay brother or watch an overpriced movie from Blockbuster video with a few friends on a Saturday night that has someone like me as its subject. Maybe, like with most issues in the Black gay male community, I am too new to the "lifestyle" to know what we really want and desire. Maybe, all we want to see is so-called straight men having sex with other so-called straight men. If this is true, then it simple furthers my belief that I don’t know very much about what it means to be a Gay Black Man. I guess I am then regulated to being what I have always been, just a man. Or maybe there are more African-American gay men out there who don’t want to tongue kiss our lovers at the office Christmas Party or a marriage license. Maybe there are a few more who just want a seat in the movie theater and something we can relate to on the screen. Avery (also from the forum) seems to offer some hope:

. . .Maybe someday some films will be made showing both sides of the
black male. . .

Until then, I guess the balcony is closed and closeted.�1998 (You know Larry at 23 I probably would have said who cares as well but at 29 I realize that it should be me! I tell you two things I have observed about african americans gay or straight. One we dont pay attention to the little things that really mean a lot in the long run and two we are often guilty of inaction because we feel that it wont matter or that nothing will change. With this in mind let me say this. I once went to a book store and asked the black female attendant were there any new black gay books. She promptly replied no and I complained of the lack. She said well write it yourself. I took this as an insult but as the years passed I realized the profoundness of that statement regardless of its intent. And so I did, I wrote it myself; I created Da Site as something real to speak to my experience as a gay black male. I wont minimize the work of others but I felt that the publications emerging from the black gay community that should have supposedly spoken to my experience in fact did not! Because I chose to believe that I could make a difference I have inspired others to believe and now we are making a difference! Furthermore Larry we wont get the films that are for us until we let the world know who we are. That we continue to demand videos or tolerate videos that only depict one segment of the gay community, shows that we need to get it togther my brother. We would be as guilty as the media was when they chose to exclude black froms television films and commercials. In closing I reiterate that black gay males both masculine and effeminate must unite. We are one community! We are valuable if we cant pass for straight or if we can! And to deny film presence to any segment of our community should be in your own words counter productive and ill advised!)

From twinnysevin@hotmail.com

i have to say that as i mature, labels (gay, straight, queen, sissy, etc.) don't hold much weight with me. those are terms formed by people who don't know, care to know, or understand anything about people like us. i must admit that God had to deal with my heart when it comes to effeminate men. i connected with a drag queen on a spiritual level once. i found myself prophesying to him and when i saw him again, he told me that all of what i told him happened just like i said. he told me about how he began to minister to certain people in the time we had not seen each other in the manner that i told him he would. i learned a valuable lesson. God made us all and will use us as he sees fit. We are already who God says we are and what anyone else thinks doesn't matter. Everyone is valuable and has a real purpose regardless of their "mannerisms". we have to stop missing the big picture and learn to appreciate the God in our brothers and sisters.

From bart234@hotmail.com

I came across thissite looking for people of like minds.
I'm an intelligent young black male who spent spent over four years at the University of Phoenix. I searched in vain for a plae to meet gay & bisexual men of color, other people that see the world as I do. I knew that I was attracted to males when I was in high school. I never liked effeminate guys. I always looked upon them as weaklings & disgusting. The thought of having sex with a flip wrist, (a wordI don't use anymore) would repulse me so that I would gag at the very thought. A few years ago my cousin confessed to me that he was gay. I was shocked, but not as shocked as he was when I told him "So am I". We have another cousin who has been openly gay for quite sometime. I hated him because he was in my eyes so gay. I shuned him & all of his freinds. If I happened to be at a gathering where thewere men who were femm, I would avoid them at all cost. My cousin & I argued about his so called femm behavior all the time. Everytime I would see him I would make sure to call him out of his name. I never wanted to be around him or go anywhere with him. He called me once because he was stranded. He needed me to come get him, & I called someone else just so that I would not be seen with him in public. He came by my house one ight just to talk to me. We had a long conversation through the night. He shared with me how he felt, how he wanted to be a woman because his life as a man was terrible. I had to listen to him describe the rapes by neighborhood boys & men that he endured as a child because he was femm. The pain his father put him through because he couldn't play sports like the other cousins. It affected his school life, his social life, his home life & so much more. I cried for him that night. I apologized for being an ass-hole to him & all the other femm guys in the life. I realized because of my cousin that I was ashamed of being gay. I was hiding behind my masculinity. What made me so different from him that I could judge him or the person he was when I myself am gay. Thats just as horrible a tragedy as mem!
bers of our family went through trying to pass for white in order to be accepted in society or certain social clubs, jobs so on & so forth. I'm just as gay as he is whether I put on a dress & high heels (which I don't) or not. My cousin is a man who likes men & I am a man who likes men. Yes femms are men too. I now realize that & i have opened my eyes so that I can look past the femm side of a man. I may miss the love of my life should I exclude one apple from the entire picture. Through all the education I'd gotten, I still needed an education in loving all my gay men of color regardless of their femm or so called masculine ways.

From cwill20439@aol.com

I would like to respond to your article about the so-called "staightening" of gay black men. With respect to our effeminate brothers I believe this comes from the roots of not wanting to be found out, but still not denying their preferences with regard to having sex with another man. Many of our young brothers see the effeminate male as a bad thing, because they would not bring that person around their families or their friends. It is a real turn on for some to be hanging out with your friend knowing soon that you will be intimate with this fine brother. I personally do not like the real effeminate males and stay real clear of them. I am, however, in a relationship with a fine brother who is just like I am, conservative. We realize that being effeminate is a huge hinderance when dealing in the work that we do. The image we see of those types is the crotch gazing kind and we would not want to deal with them.
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, but in todays society it is much better to blend in and rise up from within, rather than beating on closed doors because you are too effeminate. I see it as a hinderance in certain lines of work, not all. My son [16] has asked me several times why do men act like that. He feels it is repulsive and would not want to be associated with a person like that, were he gay. My son lives with my partner and I, and he does not have a problem with US being together. As far as movies, I would much rather see two straight appearing men rather than two [or 1] effeminate men. It is a deep turn on two see two MEN get busy. If I want to see women, I got movies for that urge. I like the straightening of black men. We have enough strikes against us, let us not create another one, for which we will regret, because it is our own doing. Plus, it takes the mystery out of the sex. With a straight dude you never know how it [or you] will turn out!! With effeminate guys, you most always will be on top. Never knew one who like that role. I'm sure there are some, but not many. Lets keep our brothers straight appearing!!
Thank You,
Charles Williams

From blkmright1@aol.com

Black Men talking; WOW!!! i want to do back flips and cart wheels at the same time... bwoy i am just loving this. Nuff kudos to webmaster for giving voice to the brothers. damn this was well needed (ANYWAYS ENOUGH SAID...SO LET ME JUMP INTO THE DEBATE)

emotions seems to be flying everywhere and the emotive language is fierce as hell. seems like the brothers have a lot to say; kewl i like that. while i can understand how the webmaster came to his conclusion as to the sexuality of the brothers in gay movies, i would encourage him to rethink his conclusion. these brothers are just products of our sorry environment. an environment that tells them that to be male is to be tough, rough and wicked. hence, the advent of the 'ruffnecks','straight acting's' etc. the gay society has a lot to answer to. it has placed these role playing brothas, whose sexuality is predominatly defined by the class they throw themselves in i.e ruffnecks or straight acting on a pedestal. and anyone who dares to fall outside these realm are just sorry asses for being gays.
because it is believed for far too long that the MAN, Yes MAN, taking the dick is less of a MAN, many of us tries (and most fail miserably) to protray this manly image that is not apart of you. what we should be teaching our black brothers is to learn to treat each others with admiration and mutual respect. teach the brothers that who is on the receiving end of the dick is no less of a man than who is pushing it. We need to understand that as a black race we are very diverse, both in culture and skin colour. hence, there are those of us who are described as chocolate, caramel, fair, dark etc (this is not the forum for this political debate)and so if we understand this diversity then we should not have any problems understanding the diversity of the GAY BLACK MAN. some of us are born with effeminate ways, others acquired them. some of are speaky spokey others don't speak at all. some of us are expressive through the constant twirling of the wrist others are blessed with the power of the tongue and quick wit. there are those of us, through no fault of our own, that are born to look like women, while as per our society. there are those of us who are blessed with rough manly features. yeah, by now you get the picture.

most of these ACTORS...and that's what they are would not get these roles if they did not play the ruffneck straight acting role. because this is what the gay community is demanding. we refuse to accept the drag queens and effeminate brothers, because we feel they don't adequately represent us. society view 'sissies' with such negativity that we as gay black males have placed the so called ruffnecks as role models for who we are... but what is laughable, is that if you catch these 'ruffnecks' outside their role playing you would just die. was this the hardcore brother, butch to the bone that i just saw outside? naw, it can't be...wrong! it is. he has forgotten that he needs to be constantly playing a role...thus busted! what we should be doing is appaulding individuality, teach acceptance and respect each other. the balck male is unique, he is beautiful, he is intelligent, he is industrious, he is PHYNE and he is SPECIAL. so lets tell him that the next time you see him.

and it's okay if a brother don't like a brother for some reasons or another. it's kewl, you can't and should'nt be expected to like all type of brothers. just respect them, that is all i ask. and brothers, it's kewl to be on the DL (downlow) if that is how you want to flex, YOU should be the on eto define your own space and action, but respect the borthers who chose to open and 'PROUD' (and i use this word with caution) about who they are. it's through these brave soldiers that the suicide rate among black gay males is down, its through these brave soldiers that we now have rights in congress, its through these brave soldiers that we can stand proud, be accepted and be not afraid or ashamed of who we are, and it is through these brave soldiers that there are organisation set up for our brothers dying of aids, and for our young brothers who are just coming out and need some guidance. So respect them. for God knows that you DL (downlow) brothers are not going to be at the forefronts fighting for gay rights.

finally, if i can be so brave as to think that anything will be final in this continuous debate. as a people let us seek to empower each other rather than tear each others down

From ANONYMOUS

First, I really enjoy the lively debate about straight men playing the role of gay men. But seriously, the issue is much deeper than who is qualified to ACT like they are having SEX. Let's not fool ourselves and take a porno video too seriously. It is entertainment at best. It can be useful to build your technique in bed, but generally LOVE is not part of the equation.

Since I have only been w/ one man in my adult life, and have interacted w/ others in the gay community, I have found and have been told that 1. There are no real commitments (real love, agape love) within the Black Gay community 2. Relationships are secondary, Sex is primary..(just check out the AOL chat rooms). 3. As much as we want to accept feminine brothers, they cramp our style. Our attitude is one of denial, although if we had to tell the truth, many brothers would admit to having sex, behind closed doors, with them.

Personally, I am a total man, I don't play a role, so I don't claim to be fem, or against it either. I know fem brothers who I would give the shirt off my back, before thinking of helping out some of those masculine, timb,
Versace, wannabees. I don't say this out of bitterness, more so because it is a fact.

I think the Gay Black Community does itself a dis-service when we focus on Sex. I might be interacting w/ the wrong bunch, but those I know, cheat on their lovers, while claiming to LOVE their partner. Singles are constantly dating whoever they come across, have multiple sex partners, and claim they are looking for the right one. I realize is it in a man's nature to "hunt". But how many of us want our dads to treat our moms the way we treat one another. I even met a brother who tried to deny the woman. I had to remind him who carried him for 9 months.

Back to my point. There are many examples of love, commitment, and real relationships within the BLACK Community. Look at the recent movies, Soul Food, Jason's Lyric, etc. Why is that so hard to find in the Black Gay Community? Where are we missing the boat? I invite others to challenge my views. I invite others to speak more about real friendships, relationships, and commitment. I challenge those of you who go through the "Send me your Pic" routine to accept others for WHO they are.

Take the challenge!!!!

From onyx177591@aol.com

I was reading what you wrote about the straight gay black men ,and speaking as a black gay male, i find it insulting , for one i think it gives black men who are in the closet the idea that they must be " hard " and "tuff",when infact it should be just the opposite .If a man so chooses to be femenine then so be it , i dont fall into one catergory or the other ,but for men that do movies and opinions like that do nothing but make them feel ashamed or look down upon themselves

From An Anonymous Speaker

Just because you don't sleep with someone doesn't mean you shouldn't respect him/her. Many brothers don't like effiminate men and want to treat them as if they don't matter. My personal preference is not for effeminate men but if approached I would always be courteous.
The same brothers who call for equality in diversity...are very autocratic when it comes to practising this. When the chips are down, where are all the "down low" brothas, the real men...in the closet while the fems wear their heart on their sleeves and sometimes it is their courage to be who they are that we stand on. Get with it brothas. Respect the fems and give them their due respect.

From black_don79@hotmail

I HAVE WONDERED IF THERE WERE STRAIGHT MEN JUST ACTING GAY FOR THE MONEY FOR A WILE. I KNOW IF YOU ARE BROKE YOU MAY DO JUST ABOUT ANYTHING.

From vsbrya0@pop.uky.edu

In response to the "Straightening of Blackmen" I'm considered a feminine gay black man, but over time I have noticed myself changing. The change is good for me because I am more confortable with my masculinity and my femininity. I am basically more balanced. From experience I know that most feminine males feel somewhat insecure about their feminine qualities. They feel like they aren't men most of the time. I will go so far to say that they sometimes wish they were women in order to have sanity. Being a black man it not easy and being a gay and feminine man is extremely tiresome, rough, lonely, and emotionally draining. I salute all those who can relate to what I am saying. I salute
you because you are a survivor. I am a survivor and I haven't stopped liking men or women. I have learned to adapt to any situation. I have
become a man. Not a bisexual man, and not just a gay man, but
I am myself. And I refuse to deny myself of anything including
my manhood, my feminine characteristics I inherited from moma, or men.
Sincerely, A 20 year old college student.

From sfarmer@howard.edu

With regards to the discussion, "The Straightening of the Black Gay Community":

I feel that this alleged 'straightening' in really taking because many members of the black same-gender-loving community want it to. I reflect on some of the various opinions given by brothers in our community.

1. I feel that many black gay men want to be with men that they can bring home to mother with no fear or shame. So often I hear from brothers that cannot and will not take an effeminate man or a transgendered male home because they don't want any embarrassment from anyone.

2. I feel that while many black gay men embrace masculinity and effeminacy, effeminacy in men has placed below masculinity in men. For this reason, the ruffneck, the musclular man, and the brother who's masculinity is very detectable have become the objects and fantasies of many gay men. Since the adult movie industry caters to the fantasies
of its consumers, the consumers are seeing what they have been longing for.

3. I embrace all expressions of one's homosexuality. GOD teaches HIS people to love unconditionally. Therefore, I strive to make my love (an extension of GOD's love) unconditional.

4. I feel that in order for the black gay community to become what GOD wants it to be, we must embrace the diversity of the community. As long as we push to have one standard of the gay male by which all others should strive to be, we will never accomplish the things we want to
accomplish as a community. In other words, we must learn to accept the fact that not all gay men want to be hard. Not all gay men want to effeminate. Not all gay men want to be straight (and believe me, there are some brothers who feel this way). Not all gay men want to wear drag.

In closing, I encourage everyone who participates in this forum that we should not want to be clones of some one person. We should give GOD glory for our uniqueness and appreciate the uniqueness of others.

From blkpositiv@aol.com

"Straightening of Black Gay Men" I am impressed with some of your assertions. Your article points out a little of what happens in Patriarchy at its worst extreme. It also points out the strong need to belong, and have a sense of brotherhood, which by no means excuses the violence of gangrape; straight or gay. I still believe that until we learn to relax our gender issues a bit and investigate them a bit deeper this trend will continue. Though I don't wear them, there is something powerful about men in drag who are comfortable as men. There is something powerful about men in touch with that part of themselves that is "stereotypically" femenine yet they are comfortable as men. We could benefit by checking out other culters where gender roles are a bit more flexible and less unhealthy. Okay. Too much rambling. Peace and healing! Blkpositiv

From an anonymous reader

I do not think all the gay men you see are necessarily all gay. While watching one the other day it came to my attention that some of the brothers in the videos are indeed on drugs. Others however are just trying to live up to that stereotypical fantasy that all gay men want is straight men. I don't want a straight man. I want a self actualized gay man who isn't afraid to be who he is, a man who is attracted to other men.

From will25@smartweb.net

straight! black men in gay videos....please i have tons of videos and i have not seen any!. I think a lot of us are being fooled. 1st of all and i hope all of you will listen to this STRAIGHT MEN ARE NOT INTERESTED IN OTHER MEN! . i have the videos you are talking about and i don't think any of the brothas in them are straight, ruffnecks maybe,macho, or what every but straight no,i have been whit some and they love dick. And as for as making love most gay men don"t make love WE HAVE SEX.. and their are many gay men who don't know how to make love.From time to time people are sometimes ternd on by the same sex but we all know what we perfer. I know some s traight men who have been there, and some have told me been there, tryed that and i like pussy.

Speaker I find it amazing that you can judge from the comfort of your home who is straight and who is gay in these videos! You go boyee! But seriously though, as the webmaster of an adult site I am more in contact with the players in the adult industry and I tell you this it is much easier for non gay men to work in the industry than gay. Simply because a gay black man that does an adult video or photo layout will be branded and his hopes of securing a credible relationship within the community will dwindle down quite far. Most gay men enjoy these videos but in no way shape or form would they do one. Just for the simple fact of the stigma that would come with it. Men in these videos become consumate objects and gay men objectify such males to the nth degree. Another point you brought up is interesting though. The making love vs having sex. I respect your belief that most gay men HAVE SEX and dont make love and I am inclined to believe you just from judging what I have seen in the lifestyle. But I maintain that It would be a better world though if we as gay black men took out the time to try and get to know one another. Because until you get to know and love a man the only thing you are doing is having sex!

From jiggy22g@yahoo.com

I know from personal experience that a lot of our gay brothers are increasingly harder to spot. Myself, if you didn't already know that I was bi-sexual, you probably wouldn't know it. I remember the day I told my mom and she didn't believe me. I have the hardest time trying to find a real nigga like me. I'm not labeling myself gay, straight or anything else. I prefer masculine men, so having a "degree of straightness" is a plus for me. I personally don't have anything against effeminate men (I have quite a few effeminate freinds), but as far as dating them----no. But that's just me. By the way, if you see 2 supposedly straight guys having sex, THEY ARE NOT STRAIGHT. I don't care how much money they're getting paid. Even if they wouldn't conduct themselves in that matter off the screen, they are still getting paid to be gay. A nigga who is really straight and grounded in his sexuality would not for any price change that.

Following your logic would mean that a gay man who has sex with a woman for what ever reasons really isnt gay. Yeah right! My brutha human sexuality is far more complex than what most of us accept and unlike animals we can make choices. To say that just because a man has sex with another man he must be gay or in your words IS NOT STRAIGHT is simplistic and narrow minded. I have had sex with 3 women and was in a relationship with one and by no means am I bisexual or straight. What I did with them was of my own free will and I recognize that the love I felt for them is in no way the kind of love I feel for the fine bruthas that I have dated and been in relationships with since I became an adult.

From an anonymous reader

i must concur that the straightening of gay black america is taking place. effeminate brothers are largely rejected by many black communities, with the exceptions of the larger metropolitan areas. i'm living in a small college town and the scare of social ostracism is quite real for many gay or bisexual black males. they live their lives 'in love' with one another without the chance to ever really love (getting to know for sure) each other due to these external societal forces. i know this first hand.

i've cried in frustration when i am virtually forced by my community to avoid being with one i care greatly about because i care greatly about him (knowing how truly vulnerable he is emotionally--by what he has revealed to me, oft times without words). (don't think i got the last sentence messed up. i have to let him alone because i care for him. some fucked up shit ain't it?)

i guess i can only hope that i shall find a community in which to live that i can show my care to my significant other in ways besides being apart from him.

From an anonymous reader

For most of us coming out is a very big thing. Many times it take a huge amount of guts to do so. When I came out, (I was 17 at the time) I had to let the world know I was gay, and I was miss Thing to and for every one. Most "new" gays have that, I think, till a certain age, then you realize that you can be gay without the whole world spotting you a mile off. I believe it is a fase most of us go though. And sooner or later we come to our sences...

From an anonymous reader

I agree with your comments. As a feminine gay black men. I find very uneasy when i see all of these videos where everybody has to be so HARD. When in fact you have masculine and feminine gay men.

From an anonymous reader

I grew up at a time when role playing seemed to the accepted norm in gay black male relationships. The gays that one could identify were clearly "fem" and their partners were closeted and clearly "butch." In fact the "butch" partner did not consider himself gay. Very ofen the rest of the community did not either. Vestiges of these identities still remain. The "butch" or active gay still gets married, has children, and "tricks" when he can. Although on the surface he remains much the man, but sexually, more often than not, he enjoys being passive. Black society stigmatizes the unmarried man who is not chasing women. Other men ostracise him and the married bruthas still find each other in straight bars where they find a few minutes of comfort and dare not think of a real relationship with another man. Of course, there are the other "out" bruthas whose self-esteem is greatly impaired by a society that will not accept them, closeted gays who reject them, and their own warpped attitudes that make them little fit for successfully sharing, without competition, the things essential for building a relationship. More another time.

From an anonymous reader

Is is not true that these guys are straight and it really doesn't matter. They are acting period. As for the effeinime ways, it's been so long and still exist that thats what gay men are, woman with penis but I think it is great that these men are into hip-hop and are masculine, they are after all men. Growing up I beleived I was totally screwed up because I was not feminine and I was attracted to men, I work with young gay teens on a volunteer bases and they are still getting the message that gay mens, wristing sagging, finger popping and lisping. Isn't it time we embrace masculinity as what it should be, there are different forms of masculinity, liking Oprea and having culture does not make you feminine, but I refuse to beleive that because me and my friends are into hip-hop and can't be easily idenifified as gay we are going straight, that is a homophobic thing to say all togther. I love men and black men in particular and I don't have to snap my fingers to prove that. Your friend the rapist was not trying to be straight he was suffering from low self esteem and was out right stupid, because my staight male friends don't go around raping anyone to prove their straightness.

I dont want to stray to far from the topic but gay men embracing Hip Hop is one of the most enigmatic things that I have ever encountered in my life! What I see really happening is that gay men are embracing certain elements of Hip Hop, namely the boyishness of it all because gay men are drawn to things masculine, without fully understanding all the underlying elements however. The Hip Hop movement is all about the glorification of illegal activities, violence, and sexual immorality at its core and its rejection of homosexuality is well documented. Dont get me wrong I enjoy Hip Hop artists such as DMX but I realize that its not the music really its DMX that is attractive. But his music and the music of most of his Hip Hop peers really should be restricted to certain groups. To underestimate the effects of this music is a grave mistake. The death of Tupac Shakur and Biggie Smalls are testament to this. Reader I have noticed an ever growing trend of negativeness and contention within the gay community that really only str8ts used to exhibit. I mean gay young men seem to be especially affected. They no longer place the emphasis on excellence in education and the performing arts that gays did before and their dispositons are very unpleasant. In fact I can remember a time when gay men who were openly gay were objects of respect. But now young gay men are more concerned about their timbs and being laced in gabbada and versace and trying to be carbon copies of their str8t counterparts! In fact I strongly believe that gay black men are the unsung heroes of the black community. Because we have raised so many children, paid so many bills of our family and friends, counsel many young black men and women and we certainly keep the black chuch going. Dear reader I can tell you are very strong minded and well rounded and you can look at these videos and listen to this music and it may not affect you adversely but the same cannot be said for many of us especially the youngest of us. Reader think about this. If an effeminate young man read your statements and the statements of others how do you think he would feel. Because in essence you all have told him that embracing masculinity is positive and thereby implied that his being effeminate is not. If one is effeminate that is natural to you just like being masculine is to you and trying to be otherwise is foolish and disconcerting as you were disconcerted. Thats like str8t people telling us we should try to be heterosexual. It wounds me to see anyone forced to be something they are not! I have been down that arduous path and lord knows the years that I struggled understanding and coming to terms with my sexuality only to have others constantly telling me that I could be str8t if I wanted really wanted to be! As though I really wanted to be gay so that I would live a life of hiding and being shunned by my family and people who arent gay. Reader believe me when I say I relate to everything you are saying but that doesnt make being effeminate less or somehow not positive for those who are. Its all about unity my brutha!

From Blacksun@cyberdude.com

I have read your coments on the effeminate black man and I don't agree with all that you said. But I do agree that the porn industry must begin to show a different side of the black gay male. In most movies his role is the mack daddy to a man of a different race or he is portrayed as a hard ruff neck. Our role as blackmen in this country has changed and the porno
industry has chosen to ignore it. We come in many different shades of brown and many different shades of masculinity. To assume that all men want to see is some Mack Daddy is wrong. Many black men are attracted to effeminate men and I'm sure the sexual relations are just as erotic as with men who are masculine. Maybe someday some films will be made showing both sides of the black male. I think (this only my opinion) that black men should retain their masculine role. In a time when the movie industry as a whole still has not seen gay men as masculine, the world is
still seeing images of effeminate gay men on the screen. Being gay is still a stigmatism. I think that if a black man is "Acting Striaght" it's because he's masculine. If one is effeminate it's not because "He wants to be a She". It's because they are more comfortable in their mannerisms. I am
not judgemental but I think that masculine men are attractive and most men want "A Man". As you know Mike in this society masculinity is synonymous with a man. Ergo more men want to see masculine men in porno films and that's why they make them - To sell movies. I don't think effeminate movies would do as well. Thanks for listening - Blacksun.

Reader an effeminate gay male is still "A Man!" In addition I found the more I poured myself into the web site the more I began to see certain of my own biases more clearly. One in particular was my view of effeminate males. I had always been cordial to such men but never friendly and in a way my indifference made them invisible to me for the most part. So I began to search myself and I am going to be completely honest, in a way I think I feared somehow turning into one of them if I got too close. I confronted this fear within myself and further realized that I had become a victim of conditioning. I and my closest friends often imitate in private the worse that one would see in the most effeminate gay male and I have noticed straight males do this as well. In a way I think we as black men gay and str8t have a real hard time with our softer side and as a result we go into a type of denial which leads us to suppress it in most circumstances. This self suppression only mirrors our need to suppress effeminate males. And we suppress them by our non acceptance, our ridicule, our cruelty, and our shunning of them as equals. Some of us are just blatantly hostile but I know that this could be because of a bad experience with an effeminate male or because of our need to draw a distinction between them and us in order to maintain the respect of those around us. Making matters worse is the fact that effeminate males don't help because they have a problem with their softer side too; namely, they go to the extreme with it in most but not all cases and in the process their expression becomes burdensome and unbelievable to most people that they encounter. And in this way they become caricatures; hardly worth taking seriously or respecting. But I maintain that it is the weight; the never ending pushing down of their peers that brings this about. And I think its time we think about this situation objectively and try to make changes. So what does this have to do with black male adult videos? In the absence of mainstream programming addressing black male homosexuality these videos play more of a pivotal role than what some of us know. And because they are pivotal they must address a wider range of character types.

Response from Blacksun@cyberdude.com

Re: Your response.
I must apologize if I sounded biased toward str8 acting men. There is no question that feminine men are "MEN". That being said I also took a look at my site and it is very macho in it's content. I write my own stories so I guess it's a reflection of what I prefer. I will try to get in touch with the softer side of myself more often and create a story which expresses
what I feel feminine men might like. I wish you all the best on the movie situation. I also would love to write a movie with a "Real Story". Not just a "plot". Much Love - Blacksun

From dlbrotha@hotmail.com

don't you think you are jumping the gun a little? c'mom these are just flicks. they are getting pid to "act" and i think a good number of them do an excellent job. besides i do not believe every black porno star has to be in love with person he is acting with. also, gay "acting" men want to see movies and want to meet "straight" men who "mess around. am i right?

From an anonymous reader

I don't think it's so much as a "Straightening" of the black gay male as much as it is for him to be diverse. I know several young black males who feel inorder to be gay, they must show their feminine side. Believe it or not, that's what most closeted gay men and heterosexuals think, Gay + Feminine male. You may even find this to be true of black males that you may know. how many times have you heard the comments, "I didn't know he was gay, he doesn't act gay" or "He's so masculine, are you sure he's gay?" And yes there are those who are that ignorant among us. Well just thought I's drop a few lines. May we all learn to respect ourselves in order to respect someone else.

From an anonymous reader

I read tour story about straight gays. I have seen some of the same things that the author wrote about. However, I am happy that these changes are taking place. I have never thought that being gay had anything with being feminine. My reason for chosing men is that I found something more sexually desirable in masculinity than I did in femininity. Why a brother 6ft 200lb brother or any size for that matter wants to act like a woman perplexes ME. Now that is me, just me. Everybody has different perspectives and views and that is what makes the world go around. For me and my perspective, I welcome this change. To throw more flames on the fire I do sometimes view very effeminate men to uninformed black people. They ruin it for everyone else. There is a difference between uninformed black people and black folks in general and very effeminate men and men who like to have sex with men. Be they gay, homosexual, bisexual or pansexual whatever! Very effeminate men ruin it by making people think we are all like they are. are. uninformed black people the same. C'mon....I KNOW YOU FEEL ME!

Dear reader Da Site replaced your use of the N word with "uninformed black people" and other explicative statements with phrases that expressed more clarity. The manner in which you used the N word was both offensive and inappropriate for the black stories section.